I have heard among friends, that such-and-such institution, person who got a certain job, etc. is "mafia." But their implication is even more loose than yours above - it's more like, anytime a favor is called in for personal gain. Much less organized than your description. I wonder, though, at what point it stops being "mafia" and what point it becomes how normal Italians conduct everyday life? Is it when the person speaking is not the beneficiary of it?
AlexR
· 1 year ago
Hi Miss Ex, "I have heard among friends, that such-and-such institution, person who got a certain job, etc. is “mafia.”"
- Yes, I hear this too, but as you say, it's a very loose reference, but a reference it is. You scratch my back, and I'll scratch yours.
The mafia seems to entangle people by doing them 'favours' and then, at some point in the future, calling them in.
Sometimes the mafia is not that organised, or at least that is my impression, and the members of these mafia type groups would not even think that they are acting like the 'real' mafia.
Italy is, as we both well know, built on relationships. Only these relationships are much more deeply entrenched than in the US or the UK.
As to defining the boundaries between mafia and everyday life, I don't think it is possible. The overlap is enormous, but fuzzy.
If someone does you a 'favor' in Italy - that favour will, one day, be called in...
It's all quite ominous, and intertwined into Italian culture and psyche. When you work closely with Italians, especially those from the south , you develop a relationship which is, possibly, a little too 'close'.
All the best,
Alex PS If you'd like me to do you a favour, just let me know...
Miss Expatria
· 1 year ago
I think altruism is impossible, but the natural generosity of Italians to me is the result of the mafia mentality seeping into everyday life. Does that make sense?
AlexR
· 1 year ago
Miss Ex,
"...the natural generosity of Italians to me is the result of the mafia mentality seeping into everyday life. Does that make sense?"
Yep, I would agree with you. Italians are incredibly generous, but with some, you can't help wondering, especially if you have been here for a while, if there is an underlying motive.
I would emphasise that by no means all Italians are like this, but a significant number are - hence high levels of corruption, and why the mafia integrates so well into Italian society.
Interesting observation Miss E!
Alex
Joe T
· 1 year ago
Yes, I heard that being fitted with iron weights and dumped in the Hudson River can be somewhat unhealthy...
AlexR
· 1 year ago
Hi Joe,
"Yes, I heard that being fitted with iron weights and dumped in the Hudson River can be somewhat unhealthy…"
Yep, being treated to an unexpected and permanent bath in the Hudson would not do much for your health!
Cheers,
Alex
Guido
· 1 year ago
I am going to risk sounding like a leghista here, but we have to separate the culture of the north and of the south.
There is the 'Mafia' which is a phenomenon mainly in the south and organised crime, which happens everywhere in Italy, like any other country for that matter.
The Mafia originating from Sicily is more than just organised crime. Is a intricate network of families, relationships etc. that seek to control through a 'honour' code and loyalties a number of territories in the island. I think for a non-Sicilian understanding the real Mafia is very difficult. We only have writers such as Sciascia to get a glimpse in this kind of mentality.
This mentality has a variety of sources. But the main one was that it originated from a poor rural society that for centuries was left on its own and abandoned by its rulers. So this feudal system of control by a number of families developed.
While the Mafia was originally only a localised phenomenon, its tentacles (remember the TV series 'La Piovra?') was allowed to spread by self-serving corrupt politicians who made arrangements with Sicilian mafiosi to get votes. This resulted in members of Parliament being elected with votes organised by mafia bosses, and while these politicians were not directly members of the mafia, we could say that had plenty of blood on their hands.
This situation was further abetted by the fact that during the Cold War the Christian Democrats (who were the main beneficiary of mafiosi votes) managed to stay in power for decades and do very little to curtail mafia influence because many of their MPs relied on mafiosi votes. This tended to taint the whole political system.
The mafia also started to invade the North of Italy. However the conditions for this network of family and honour code did not exist. So in the north is not the real 'mafia' but just good ol' organised crime.
However this tainting of the mafia (both Sicilian and Neapolitan varieties) of the Italian political system and the inactions of governments to do anything about it created the monster of the Lega Nord where even rational and intelligent northern Italians were attracted by their inane and racist propaganda, which is a pity (fortunately they bark more than bite these days)
AlexR
· 1 year ago
Thanks for that 'quick' history of the mafia Guido. It's more or less what I understood.
I would only disagree on on point in that the mafia does exist in the north of Italy - as a result of southern Italians moving up to the north and bringing their home comforts with them.
The mafia up north are, in the main, offshoots of Italy's other mafia groups - and they retain links with their origins too. There was a big round up of a mafia family here in Milan not so long ago, and a newspaper article on this did mention connections to south Italy.
As for the infiltration/integration of the mafia into Italian society - of that there is no doubt.
You can say what you like about the mafias, but they sure as heck are not stupid.
All Comments
"I have heard among friends, that such-and-such institution, person who got a certain job, etc. is “mafia.”"
- Yes, I hear this too, but as you say, it's a very loose reference, but a reference it is. You scratch my back, and I'll scratch yours.
The mafia seems to entangle people by doing them 'favours' and then, at some point in the future, calling them in.
Sometimes the mafia is not that organised, or at least that is my impression, and the members of these mafia type groups would not even think that they are acting like the 'real' mafia.
Italy is, as we both well know, built on relationships. Only these relationships are much more deeply entrenched than in the US or the UK.
As to defining the boundaries between mafia and everyday life, I don't think it is possible. The overlap is enormous, but fuzzy.
If someone does you a 'favor' in Italy - that favour will, one day, be called in...
It's all quite ominous, and intertwined into Italian culture and psyche. When you work closely with Italians, especially those from the south
, you develop a relationship which is, possibly, a little too 'close'.
All the best,
Alex
PS If you'd like me to do you a favour, just let me know...
"...the natural generosity of Italians to me is the result of the mafia mentality seeping into everyday life. Does that make sense?"
Yep, I would agree with you. Italians are incredibly generous, but with some, you can't help wondering, especially if you have been here for a while, if there is an underlying motive.
I would emphasise that by no means all Italians are like this, but a significant number are - hence high levels of corruption, and why the mafia integrates so well into Italian society.
Interesting observation Miss E!
Alex
"Yes, I heard that being fitted with iron weights and dumped in the Hudson River can be somewhat unhealthy…"
Yep, being treated to an unexpected and permanent bath in the Hudson would not do much for your health!
Cheers,
Alex
There is the 'Mafia' which is a phenomenon mainly in the south and organised crime, which happens everywhere in Italy, like any other country for that matter.
The Mafia originating from Sicily is more than just organised crime. Is a intricate network of families, relationships etc. that seek to control through a 'honour' code and loyalties a number of territories in the island. I think for a non-Sicilian understanding the real Mafia is very difficult. We only have writers such as Sciascia to get a glimpse in this kind of mentality.
This mentality has a variety of sources. But the main one was that it originated from a poor rural society that for centuries was left on its own and abandoned by its rulers. So this feudal system of control by a number of families developed.
While the Mafia was originally only a localised phenomenon, its tentacles (remember the TV series 'La Piovra?') was allowed to spread by self-serving corrupt politicians who made arrangements with Sicilian mafiosi to get votes. This resulted in members of Parliament being elected with votes organised by mafia bosses, and while these politicians were not directly members of the mafia, we could say that had plenty of blood on their hands.
This situation was further abetted by the fact that during the Cold War the Christian Democrats (who were the main beneficiary of mafiosi votes) managed to stay in power for decades and do very little to curtail mafia influence because many of their MPs relied on mafiosi votes. This tended to taint the whole political system.
The mafia also started to invade the North of Italy. However the conditions for this network of family and honour code did not exist. So in the north is not the real 'mafia' but just good ol' organised crime.
However this tainting of the mafia (both Sicilian and Neapolitan varieties) of the Italian political system and the inactions of governments to do anything about it created the monster of the Lega Nord where even rational and intelligent northern Italians were attracted by their inane and racist propaganda, which is a pity (fortunately they bark more than bite these days)
I would only disagree on on point in that the mafia does exist in the north of Italy - as a result of southern Italians moving up to the north and bringing their home comforts with them.
The mafia up north are, in the main, offshoots of Italy's other mafia groups - and they retain links with their origins too. There was a big round up of a mafia family here in Milan not so long ago, and a newspaper article on this did mention connections to south Italy.
As for the infiltration/integration of the mafia into Italian society - of that there is no doubt.
You can say what you like about the mafias, but they sure as heck are not stupid.
All the best,
Alex