Blog from Italy - Life in the Living Museum - Latest Comments in Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy

Re: Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy

Alex Roe — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 10:34:05 -0000

Good stuff Andy!

Keep up the great work! I'm hoping to hear back from the Guardian.

If we keep up the pressure, then something will come out of this. Might kick me out of Italy though!

By the way, the Pisa fine photo checking server appears to be down - well one person has not been able to get in.

Can others confirm that the server is up or down? Here is the link:

https://secure.comune.pisa....

Try looking at those photos once more, if you don't mind.

All the best to one and all,

Alex

Re: Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy

Andy — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 10:30:05 -0000

I am currently in talks with my MEP, they are currently looking into the issues and will keep you updated with any information i can!

Cheers

Andy

Re: Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy

Alex Roe — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 09:35:16 -0000

Hi all,

Diane, and the rest of you might like this recent post:

Italy doesn't Give a Damn about Tourists

All the best,

Alex

Re: Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy

Alex Roe — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 09:10:15 -0000

Well done for trying Diane. Watch out for a new post on this issue!

Best,

Alex

Re: Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy

diane — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 09:03:14 -0000

I have also replied to the Guardian. I had a reply from the Italian Tourist Board today saying that they cannot enter into negotiations with the Municipality of Pisa. Another door slams...

Re: Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy

Alex Roe — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 08:59:35 -0000

OK - I have replied to the Guardian. Will keep you updated on progress.

Cheers,

Alex

Re: Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy

Alex Roe — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 07:57:35 -0000

No problem Jon!

Duplicate away - the more people see the Guardian article, the better.

By the way, the Guardian has replied to my email, and I'm in the process of drafting a reply - must have some lunch too!

Maybe something will start moving. I hope so, on behalf of everyone here. Please, please keep those fine documents!

All the best,

Alex

Re: Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy

Jon — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 06:57:22 -0000

Sorry - I duplicated.

Re: Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy

Alex Roe — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 06:48:14 -0000

Thanks Jon - I had already posted the link above. If it does not do its linky thing, let me know.

Regards,

Alex

Re: Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy

Jon — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 06:23:01 -0000

If anyone is looking for the Guardian article and can't find it the direct link is:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/m...

Re: Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy

Alex Roe — Sun, 14 Sep 2008 17:11:41 -0000

Thanks Phillip.

Hope they reply, or even better, come digging.

Cheers,

Alex

Re: Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy

Phillip Wicks — Sun, 14 Sep 2008 15:00:15 -0000

I have also written to the Guadian @ money.editor@guardianunlimited.co.uk.

Re: Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy

Alex Roe — Sun, 14 Sep 2008 14:50:36 -0000

To All,

I have written to the Guardian.co.uk. If I receive any response, I'll let you know. I shall also publish the letter I have written.

Regards,

Alex

Re: Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy

Alex Roe — Sun, 14 Sep 2008 14:14:07 -0000

Hi Christine,

Sorry your comments did not get published immediately - they got spammed. I've just de-spammed them. The article:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/m...

is interesting and reflects my own point of view, aside from whether these fines are fair or not, if you don't cough up, then there is a risk that non-payment may lead to 'consequences' when returning to Italy. Please read the article.

Ian - I do speak and read Italian well enough, but my written Italian is not up to much alas. I shall speak to some Italian lawyer friends of mine about this too.

I had thought about doing this before, but their advice would have required sending letters to the Pisa authorities and contesting things in court. Such a course of action will inevitably cost money - as well as considerable time and effort to set up. I'm a little reluctant to go down such a path as I'm not too sure where it will end up.

Reading the Guardian article it does look as though the fines are legitimate, so arguing a case in an Italian court would not be too straight forward and you can bet your bottom Euro that the Pisa authorities, and others, will fight tooth and nail to hold on to this little income stream.

Personally, I reckon adverse media attention will be more effective - and cheaper, so it would be good to get the Watchdog people on board, if we can.

Should Watchdog not work out, then getting lawyers involved may be an option, even if the time-scale involved will be long - as will be the cost. Court cases take an age to be resolved in Italy - and 10 years is an oft quoted length of court cases here - possibly more if you appeal things to the highest court here or take the thing to Europe.

Let me know your thoughts on the above. Anyway, I'll have a go at Watchdog when I've got a moment.

All the best to one and all,

Alex

Re: Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy

Christine Brown — Sun, 14 Sep 2008 11:27:08 -0000

There's an article posted in this Saturday's Guardian regarding such fines.......

http://www.guardian.co.uk/m...

Caught in Holiday traffic is the article........worth a read guys.....

Re: Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy

diane — Sun, 14 Sep 2008 11:09:11 -0000

Thanks. Have a look at the bottom of the letter at the paragraph beginning "This formal notice, its serving and everything connected with it are governed by the international conventions in existence between Italy and Grait Britain..."

"Grait Britain" - where on earth is that?? Technically, no such place exists so we are surely all exempt!

Re: Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy

Ian Game — Sun, 14 Sep 2008 11:01:56 -0000

Alex,

Well spotted regarding the Italian legal wording. May I assume that you are fluent in the language? If so may I suggest that to get some local legal comment (not advice as such but opinion from people who claim to know the local laws) that you get onto the newsgroup called:

it-alt.lavoro.professioni.avvocati.domiciliazioni-legali

which AFAIK is something to do with jobs for lawyers but in there there should be some knowledge perhaps? I was tempted to try (in English of course) but suspect that I would be ignored at best.

Thanks again for keeping us informed as well as hosting a very useful community.

Ian

Re: Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy

Christine Brown — Sun, 14 Sep 2008 06:51:38 -0000

Guys,
In Saturday's Guardian, money section there was a front page article on the scam that it fines in Italy. a la our experiences. It's interesting to note that they give percentages of fines given to germans, italians and french folk while they are in Britain. it's obvious that Germans don't pay our fines !!!!!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/m...
The article is the 1st one highlighted

Re: Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy

Alex Roe — Sat, 13 Sep 2008 17:12:42 -0000

Ashvin - I'd need to check on this. Banks reopen on Monday. I'll ring and ask.

Alex

Re: Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy

Alex Roe — Sat, 13 Sep 2008 17:11:42 -0000

Hi everyone,

Diane's comment has got me thinking. I had a look at the Italian constitution, and more perticularly,

Article 24 [Right to be Heard in Court]

(1) Everyone may bring cases before a court of law in order to protect their rights under civil and administrative law.

The key word is 'everyone' in that in the Italian version, the word 'tutti' is used. This implies anyone and everyone regardless of nationality.

By sending out notices in English and then stating, in a contradictory fashion, that appeals may only be submitted in Italian, the Pisa, or whatever Italian authorities appear to be acting outside the rules of the Italian constitution - under which all are considered equal in the eyes of the law.

This means you may appeal in whatever language you like - it is up to the Italian authorities to translate and respond appropriately - in my opinion.

It is unjust that they send out fines in - poor - English, and then state that you must appeal in Italian - and they say this in English. I believe this alone may serve to invalidate just about all of the notifications/fines send out to date.

What we need is a friendly lawyer to present this case in Italy. The Pisa authorities may well be acting beyond the provisions of their own countries constitution.

I'd be interested to hear the opinion of others on this hypothesis.

And Diane, seeing as your husband has a disability and he was driving, then the car was being used for the transportation of persons with a disability - therefore you should not have to pay a bean theoretically.

Alex

Re: Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy

diane — Sat, 13 Sep 2008 16:07:21 -0000

Come on folks - we must not pay up but challenge it. We have no way of appealling successfully. This is because my husband was the driver and he has autism. To appeal you must write in perfect Italian. He has severe difficulties communicating in English due to his disability so how on earth could he possibly communicate in a foreign language that he cannot speak one word of anyway?

Re: Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy

Ashvin — Sat, 13 Sep 2008 13:29:38 -0000

The IBAN number I have for CASSA DI---- PISA LIVORNO
BANK is

IBAN IT 50 B 06200 000000235970
(I had missed a zero in my earlier mail)

You can also send payment to post office

IBAN IT 28 Z 07601 14000 000059900076

I will be wire transferring from the U.S. Is there any way to find out the precise charge from the receiving bank/post office ?

thanks
Ashvin

Re: Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy

Phil — Sat, 13 Sep 2008 13:24:52 -0000

My numbers quoted on my letter (not the official recorded letter, which I've not yet picked up), are:-
IBAN IT 28 0760114000000059900076
BIC (swift code) BPPIITRRXXX
or payment by bank made in favour of
SEPI SPA COMUNE DI PISA SANZIONI
Cheers
Phil

Re: Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy

Alex Roe — Sat, 13 Sep 2008 12:53:08 -0000

To one and all - can you post the Pisa (and other ) IBAN numbers here? Let's ensure that they are the same. In theory they should be. If not, then things may be a little smelly.

I'm also thinking about the possibility of petitioning the EC over this, thanks to Julia and Michael. Not sure how to set up such a thing though. Will look into it and see what I can discover.

Cheers,

Alex

Re: Speeding, and other traffic fines in Italy

Alex Roe — Sat, 13 Sep 2008 12:43:27 -0000

Ashvin - the IBAN code does not appear to be valid - the 00000235970 is one digit too short - needs to be 12 digits.

As for the receiving bank charges - of the top of my head - probably around 10Euros - but I need to check. Probably depends on where the money is coming from.

Peter - take a look at the comment before yours. If the IBAN number is the about the same, then it is the same bank.

Otherwise there should be an IBAN number which you can check out here:
http://www.iban-bic.com/iba...

If you click on the sub-results, then the name of the bank should come up too.

Alex